斐多
elementary吧
全部回复
仅看楼主
level 7
liETHZ 楼主

2014年06月08日 08点06分 1
level 7
liETHZ 楼主
w螃蟹ww.qcenglish.com/ebook/2517.html
2014年06月08日 08点06分 2
level 7
liETHZ 楼主
And are not the temperate exactly in the same case? They are temperate
because they are intemperate-which may seem to be a contradiction,
but is nevertheless the sort of thing which happens with this foolish temperance.
For there are pleasures which they must have, and are afraid of
losing; and therefore they abstain from one class of pleasures because
they are overcome by another: and whereas intemperance is defined as
"being under the dominion of pleasure," they overcome only because
they are overcome by pleasure. And that is what I mean by saying that
they are temperate through intemperance.
[...]
Yet the exchange of one fear or pleasure or pain for another fear or
pleasure or pain, which are measured like coins, the greater with the less,
is not the exchange of virtue. O my dear Simmias, is there not one true
coin for which all things ought to exchange?-and that is wisdom; and
only in exchange for this, and in company with this, is anything truly
bought or sold, whether courage or temperance or justice. And is not all
true virtue the companion of wisdom, no matter what fears or pleasures
or other similar goods or evils may or may not attend her? But the virtue
which is made up of these goods, when they are severed from wisdom
and exchanged with one another, is a shadow of virtue only, nor is there
any freedom or health or truth in her; but in the true exchange there is a
purging away of all these things, and temperance, and justice, and courage,
and wisdom herself are a purgation of them.
(没电子书,自己敲。自杨绛译本。)
关于节制不也是同样的情况吗?他们的自我克制是处于一种自我放纵。当然,这话听来似乎不可能。不过他们那可笑的节制无非因为怕错失了自己贪图的享乐。他们放弃某些享乐是因为他们贪图着另一种而身不由己。一个人为享乐而身不由己其实就是自我放纵。他们克制了某些享乐因为他们贪图着另一些,这就是为什么我说他们的自我节制出于自我放纵。
[...]
亲爱的西米,我认为要获得美德,不该这样交易:用这种享乐换取那种享乐,这点痛苦换取那点痛苦,这种恐惧换取那种恐惧——这就好像交易货币,舍了小钱来换取大钱。其实一切美德只可以用一件东西来交易,这件东西也是一切交易的标准货币。这就是智慧。勇敢或节制或公正,一切真正的美德都是由智慧得到的。享乐、恐惧或其他各种都无足轻重。没有了智慧,这种那种交易的美德只是假冒的,底子里是奴性,不健全,也不真实。真实是清除了这种虚假而得到的净化。自制、公正、勇敢,甚至包括智慧本身都是一种净化。
2014年06月08日 09点06分 3
克制出于放纵;智慧;底子里的虚假
2014年06月08日 09点06分
level 7
liETHZ 楼主
What hopes I had formed, and how grievously was I disappointed! As
I proceeded, I found my philosopher altogether forsaking mind or any
other principle of order, but having recourse to air, and ether, and water,
and other eccentricities. I might compare him to a person who began by
maintaining generally that mind is the cause of the actions of Socrates,
but who, when he endeavored to explain the causes of my several actions
in detail, went on to show that I sit here because my body is made
up of bones and muscles; and the bones, as he would say, are hard and
have ligaments which divide them, and the muscles are elastic, and they
cover the bones, which have also a covering or environment of flesh and
skin which contains them; and as the bones are lifted at their joints by the
contraction or relaxation of the muscles, I am able to bend my limbs, and
this is why I am sitting here in a curved posture: that is what he would
say, and he would have a similar explanation of my talking to you,
which he would attribute to sound, and air, and hearing, and he would
assign ten thousand other causes of the same sort, forgetting to mention
the true cause, which is that the Athenians have thought fit to condemn
me, and accordingly I have thought it better and more right to remain
here and undergo my sentence; for I am inclined to think that these
muscles and bones of mine would have gone off to Megara or Boeotia-by
the dog of Egypt they would, if they had been guided only by their own
idea of what was best, and if I had not chosen as the better and nobler
part, instead of playing truant and running away, to undergo any punishment
which the State inflicts. There is surely a strange confusion of
causes and conditions in all this. It may be said, indeed, that without
bones and muscles and the other parts of the body I cannot execute my
purposes. But to say that I do as I do because of them, and that this is the
way in which mind acts, and not from the choice of the best, is a very
careless and idle mode of speaking. I wonder that they cannot distinguish
the cause from the condition, which the many, feeling about in the
dark, are always mistaking and misnaming.
(杨是根据the Loeb Classial Library53版柏拉图对话集第一册pp193-403译出,FOWLER的英译,和我下载的英译不同。.amazon.cn/Phaedo-Plato/dp/B00A72VZDM)
我的朋友,我的希望很快就消失了。我读着读着,发现这位作者并不理会智慧,他并不指出安排世间万物的真实原因,却说原因是空气,是以太,是水,以及其他的胡说八道。他的话我可以打个比方,譬如有人说苏格拉底的所作所为都处于他的智慧,他想说明我做某一件事是出于什么原因,就说我现在坐在这里是因为我身体里有骨头,有筋,骨头是硬的,分成一节一节,筋可以伸缩;骨头上附着肌肉,之外包裹着一层皮肤,一节节的骨头是由关节和韧带连接的,筋一伸一缩使我能弯曲四肢:以上这些就是我玩着两腿坐在这儿的原因。或许他也会照样说出我们一起谈话的原因,他会说,原因是声音、空气、听觉系统,还有其他数不尽的东西,总之他就是说不出真正的原因:雅典人下了决心判我死刑,我也为此下定决心坐在这里,我应当呆在这里承受雅典人判处我的任何刑罚。假如我没有保定决心而改变了主意,认为我承受的责罚并不合适、并不高尚,最好还是逃亡。那么我可以发誓我的骨头和我的筋等等一切早把我带到麦加拉或维奥蒂亚去了。把筋骨之类的东西称作原因是非常荒谬的。”如果没有筋骨等东西我认为该做的事就做不到“,此言不假。可是既然说我的行为凭我的智慧做主,却又说我做的某一件事不是因为我认定这样做最好,而是因为我的身体里有筋骨等等东西,这是非常没道理的。说这种话的人分不清什么是原因,什么是原因所附带的必要条件:原因是一回事,原因所附带的条件是另一回事。很多人把原因所附带的条件称作原因,我觉得他们是在黑暗里摸探,把名称用错了。
2014年06月08日 09点06分 4
是不是一样的?我指近年某些研究。
2014年06月08日 09点06分
他是把物质基础与其上建立的混淆了。是不是也有些机械决定论?
2014年06月08日 09点06分
level 7
liETHZ 楼主
And if anyone assails you there, you would not mind him, or answer him until you had seen
whether the consequences which follow agree with one another or not,
and when you are further required to give an explanation of this principle,
you would go on to assume a higher principle, and the best of the
higher ones, until you found a resting-place; but you would not refuse
the principle and the consequences in your reasoning like the Eristics-at
least if you wanted to discover real existence.
假如有人攻击你的原则,你别理会也别回答,你先检查据原则推理的一个个结论,看他们是否合拍。到你必须解释这原则的时候,你可以从更高的层次,找个最好的原则做依据,照样再假设。你可以一番又一番的假设,直到你的理由能讲的充分圆满。如果你是要追究任何事物的真相,切勿和诡辩家那样把原因和结果混为一谈,搅乱事理。
2014年06月08日 09点06分 5
level 7
liETHZ 楼主
我感觉她翻译的最出色的部分是苏格拉底之死。
Then holding the
cup to his lips, quite readily and cheerfully he drank off the poison. And
hitherto most of us had been able to control our sorrow; but now when
we saw him drinking, and saw too that he had finished the draught, we
could no longer forbear, and in spite of myself my own tears were flowing
fast; so that I covered my face and wept over myself, for certainly I
was not weeping over him, but at the thought of my own calamity in
having lost such a companion. Nor was I the first, for Crito, when he
found himself unable to restrain his tears, had got up and moved away,
and I followed; and at that moment. Apollodorus, who had been weeping
all the time, broke out in a loud cry which made cowards of us all.
Socrates alone retained his calmness: What is this strange outcry? he
said. I sent away the women mainly in order that they might not offend
in this way, for I have heard that a man should die in peace. Be quiet,
then, and have patience.
When we heard that, we were ashamed, and refrained our tears; and
he walked about until, as he said, his legs began to fail, and then he lay
on his back, according to the directions, and the man who gave him the
poison now and then looked at his feet and legs; and after a while he
pressed his foot hard and asked him if he could feel; and he said, no; and
then his leg, and so upwards and upwards, and showed us that he was
cold and stiff. And he felt them himself, and said: When the poison
reaches the heart, that will be the end. He was beginning to grow cold
about the groin, when he uncovered his face, for he had covered himself
up, and said (they were his last words)-he said: Crito, I owe a cock to
Asclepius; will you remember to pay the debt? The debt shall be paid,
said Crito; is there anything else? There was no answer to this question;
but in a minute or two a movement was heard, and the attendants uncovered
him; his eyes were set, and Crito closed his eyes and mouth.
Such was the end, Echecrates, of our friend, whom I may truly call the
best and wisest and most righteous man of all those of his time whom
we have ever known.
他把杯子举到嘴边,高高兴兴,平平静静的干了杯。我们大多数人原先还能忍住眼泪,这时看他一口口的把毒药喝尽,就再也忍耐不住了。我的眼泪如泉水一般不由自主的涌出来,我不是为他哭,我是因为失去了这样一位好友而哭泣我自己的苦运。克里起身往外走了,比我先走,因为他抑制不住自己的眼泪了。阿伯早先就一直在哭,这时伤心的失声嚎啕,害得我们大家都撑不住了。只有苏格拉底本人不动声色,他说:“你们这些人真没道理!这是什么行为?我吧女人打发出去,就是为了不让他们做出这等荒谬的事来。因为我听说人最好是在安静中死。你们要安静,要勇敢。”
我们听了很惭愧,忙止住眼泪。他走着走着,说腿重了,就面朝天躺下,因为陪侍者他的人叫他这样躺的。掌管毒药的那人双手按着他,过一会儿观察他的脚和腿,然后又使劲

他的脚,问有没有感觉,他说没有;再之后又捏他的大腿,一路上去,我们知道他正逐渐僵冷。那人又摸了摸他,说冷到心脏他就死了。这时候啊已经冷到肚子和大腿交界的地方,他把已经蒙上的脸又露出来说(这是他临终的话):“克里,咱们该向医药神祭献一只公鸡。去买一只,别疏忽。”克里说:“我们会照办的,还有别的吩咐吗?”他对这个问题并没有回答。过了一会儿他动了一下,陪侍的人解开他脸上该的布,他的眼睛已经定了。于是克里帮助他合上嘴,闭上眼睛。
依奇,我们的朋友就这样完了。我们可以说他是我们所知道的最好的、最有智慧的、最正直的人。
2014年06月08日 10点06分 6
(杨注:)盖得注解本P264综合各家所说,认为临终的一句应解释为苏格拉底不愿疏忽当时希腊人的传统信仰,同时又表示他自此解脱一切人间疾苦。
2014年06月08日 10点06分
1